sleeves

[ursula]

I'm trying to make sleeves like the ones worn by the woman in the lower left-hand corner or the girl with an apron in the back of this painting:

http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/g/ghirland/domenico/6tornab/62tornab/3birth.html

How do people think they would have been fastened on the upper arm & wrist? Buttons? Lace? Pins? A couple of stitches?

Comments

[foxen.livejournal.com]

I looked at some images I had lying around my computer and thought I found on example of what you are doing but there wasn't enough detail (basically the sleeves just looked like they magically closed in those places). I'll try to remember to look at some book this evening.

[ursula]

In this picture:

http://www.wga.hu/art/b/botticel/5allegor/51lemmi.jpg

(linked from here:
http://genvieve.net/sca/mcitalrennotes/index.html
)

it looks like buttons.

[franzeska]

Duct tape, clearly.

[ursula]

They didn't have that in green in the middle ages.

[kargashina.livejournal.com]

i'm thinking a lace, based on the other fastenings in the image

My 2p...

[freewaydiva.livejournal.com]

Italian Ren isn't so much for the buttons, IIRC.

I'd hazard a guess that the girl in the back has her sleeves either pinned at the shoulder point, or possibly laced. The wrist probably has a single lacing.

The girl in the front probably has them attached directly to the bodice (or it's an underdress), and laced up the forearm a little ways.

Re: My 2p...

[ursula]

I love the way between all the commenters I have pretty much every interpretation . . .

[glasseye.livejournal.com]

Velcro.

:D

[franzeska]

I still vote for duct tape.

[hooveraardvark.livejournal.com]

didn't they use straight pins for everything? eh, probably wrong era.

[gwacie.livejournal.com]

I suspect that the sleeves are sewn to the body at the back of the shoulder (at least that's what I got from the artwork at the time) leaving an opening at the front, as for at the elbow and wrist; well... it could be sewn, or closed with a hook-and-eye or lacing. I'm leaning toward sewn at the elbow and hook-and-eye at the wrist, but that's just me guessing. (a hook-and-eye hides well, was available and means that the sleeve can be opened at the wrist for sliding over the hand.)

Just my theories, feel free to ignore 'em ;)

[reasie.livejournal.com]

I must concur with my sister - and not just because she beats me up when I don't. Gracie, do you have links to any of those fabulous pictures you had that show the shoulder more closely? I do think they sewed it on a bit. There are other pictures that show lacings, but not as common.
As usual, I strongly suspect there were many different solutions employed at the time.

I do wonder why buttons are unfashionable in Italy at this point, as they had been fashionable the century before, and men, at least, sometimes have buttons at their collars... perhaps it is yet another way they were trying to be 'classical'.

[ursula]

Did you look at the picture I linked to hanksan? The same piece of documentation links to this:

http://www.wga.hu/art/c/cossa/griffo_6.jpg

which has really obvious lacing at the wrist, but that's a very different effect.

[countess-e.livejournal.com]

Need some help, little girl? I have candy ... in the form of a whole lot of good Italian sources. Call me, maybe we can meet up at CT's soon and geek.

[ursula]

Mmmm, candy. I hear that CT fell today and ended up in the emergency room, so I hesitate to volunteer his hospitality, but the general plan sounds good.

birth of john the baptist?

[minkoflove.livejournal.com]

are you blessed with a holy child then?

Re: birth of john the baptist?

[ursula]

Weren't we all?

Re: birth of john the baptist?

[minkoflove.livejournal.com]

not me. i'm jewish, remember? we commit random acts of deicide for fun and profit!

Re: birth of john the baptist?

[ursula]

Does this mean Ramon is circumcised?

Re: birth of john the baptist?

[minkoflove.livejournal.com]

that's a secret between ramón and his 1000s of lovers around the world.

[ayeshadream.livejournal.com]

BTW, I have the pink overgown like the lady on the right (standing in front of the other two in the far right) is wearing. I never wear it, I'm just not a pink kind of girl. Let me know if you might be interested in it, I'd be happy to give it to a good home.

[ursula]

Wow, that sounds gorgeous, but ironically, though I'm not ordinarily a pink kind of girl either, the only remotely appropriate underdress I have is a sort of pinky-purple, and I worry they would clash. I wonder if chemicallace would provide a good home? I know she is interested in making Italian garb.

[ursula]

Oh, used the wrong lj name: chemicallace has the SCA journal ladymuirgheal.